amateur hour at the suboxone club

I am not sure what part of the forum is best for me so I hope to get redirected if necessary. Thank you!

I am stopping a 2 month run of mixed opiate use. I am trying to soften the WD's from quick acting opiates. For the last 2 months I used a mix of Percoset, tramadol, H, morphine and vicodin. About 1/3 was prescribed and the rest I supplemented, initially for severe pain relief, and then finally for just thinking clearly. ie, I got a little hooked. But it was still only 2 months and my dependence could not be that bad. I probably averaged the equivalent of 45 mg of percs per day. Some days more, some days less or none at all. To me 45 mg of percoset is about the same as 2 x $20 bags of H, or about 75 mg of hydrocodone.

I had 2.5 8mg strips of suboxone from long ago laying around in my medicine cabinet. I have basically no experience with suboxone. But I am now playing ball, as of 3 days ago.

VERY VERY low doses of course, since I know my opiate use was fairly low compared to people who are taking 8mg or 16 mg or more



Where I am now:

I stopped all meds/drugs on Wednesday and took about 4 mg of suboxone on Thursday evening when I started feeling "off". I took another 2 mg on Friday and then another 2 mg yesterday (Saturday). Today I took about 1.6 mg of suboxone.

I am planning to continue tapering down in the next few days and then stop suboxone before I get dependent on it, but still after any WD's from the other stuff have all run their course.

Monday: 1.4 mg
Tuesday: 1.2 mg
Wednesday: 1 mg
Thursday: .75
Friday: .5
Saturday: .25


I also got some clonidine, amino acid supplements, etc.

Except for some brief nausea right after the doses, it seems suboxone is working great.

question:

Does my plan sound reasonable? Should it be adjusted at all?

I have to think clearly every morning so my thought is to take the subs in the morning, to give myself the best chance of feeling right when I need to. Does this sound like logic that has been used before?

I will probably go back to just tramadol, partly for pain, partly to help avoid any PAWS.

I was wondering what experience other ppl maynhave had with clonidine and suboxone together. Are there any personal stories or parts of this forum that cover interactions and contraindications?

Thanks everyone!

Hello MrTaper and welcome

Based on what you provided and you agreed, your not addicted to opiates, your dependent on them.
People get dependent on many medications including Suboxone.

Your plan looks good to me since your basically weaning yourself off the opiates using suboxone.
The Clonidine is often prescribed by doctors once patients come off Suboxone so that might prove to be beneficial. It's a blood pressure medication.
The only thing I might do different, is try skipping days this week. Or just put more than 24 hours inbetween doses. It might help.


This is purely my opinion of your plan.

Good luck and keep us posted, I'm very curious how this works for you

Be well,
Blue

Hello MrTaper,

I'd like to start by saying welcome to our little forum family. We are a close knot group and we welcome new members with open arms. I want you to know right off the bad that this is a great place to come for support, reassurement, encouragement, advice or to just talk about your problems, blow off some steam, express how you feel or just talk about your day without being judged. I can promise you that none of the members of this forum will be rude to you, though they will express their opinion which may not be the same as yours but they will respect your opinion while telling theirs and they will never tell you that you are wrong. Because everyone deals with addiction in a different way. And something that worked for one person may not work for the other but that doesn't mean they don't want to hear about how that person dealt with it. Anyways you get what I'm saying right? That you can talk about anything here and we will do our eat to answer your questions, give you some support, listen to your problems without judging or labeling you. And I can also promise you that none of our ladies (the ladies that I know) on this forum will be rude to you in any way.

I believe that your plan is a good plan for your situation. Like both you and Blue said you e only been using opiates for a couple months so you're most likely dependent and not addicted. But I do know that it is possible for some people to become addicted after just a couple uses. I wrote an article about people who have bi polar disorder or ADHD or both and I found doing my research that people with these disorders are more likely to become addicted after just using casually. I pray that you don't have one or both of these disorders and if you do you may want to get help with your quitting. Because having these disorders makes it harder to quit. I know this not only because I did my research but also because I suffer from both ADHD and bipolar disorder. I struggle with it every day. Anyways like I was saying I believe that your plan is good for you because you're just dependent. I think you should take Blue's advice and try skipping days as well.

I see that you have met Blue. She truly is an amazing woman. I've been on the forum since last November. So for about 6 months and she has been there for me every step of my way since day 1! She gives great advice, she's a great listener and I know that I can tell her anything on confidence and it will stay between us. I know that I can trust her. She is one of my best friends and I don't know where I'd be without her. She is a moderator on the forum and she wa recently promotes to admin of the forum! Gosh I am proud of her! There are also a few ladies on the forum that I have bonded with there is the other moderator Dee (Nanamom.) And she is just the sweetest. And she is very resourceful. There is also Rae and she is just amazing as well as Blue and Dee. Rae is another one of my good friends that I've made on this forum and she has taught me so much. Plus there are a few more ladies that will probably introduce themselves. It just takes time for us to reply here. It may be slow but we like to take our time and sincerely reply to your messages.

I'll tell you a bit about myself. I'm a 20year old mother of two. I hae a 3 year old son named Cooper and a 1 1/2 year old step daughter names Zoey. I recently split up with my ex fiancé because he became abusive and hit me. I got my own apartment with the help of his parents. Found a job. And am now fully independent. I do not have both kids living with me though. Zoey lives with Casey's parents. But u get to see her every day because they watch Cooper for me while I work. And I get Zoey on all of my days off.

I've been on suboxone for about 8 months. I started off taking 24mg/day (that is 3 8mg strips a day.) And now I am taking just 4mg/day. I've successfully been tapering all without feeling any withdrawal symptoms at all. Woot!! I started using my DOC (Drug of choice) opiates when I was just 12 years old and by 13 almost 14 years old I was using daily and heavily. One time in my life I was able to wean down off of the morphine I was taking and switch over to tramadol and that was when I was pregnant. I was told that if my son was born addicted or even tested positive at birth, because of my young age I would lose him. I did NOT want to lose my baby so I was determined. This time quitting I was unsuccessful at weaning myself down from the fentanyl patches and quitting. But I had been addicted for 6 plus years at that point. I wanted the best possible odds so I decided to go with long term suboxone with a slow and long taper.

I did try just detoxing with suboxone like you are, but I relapsed very quickly. But hey I didn't become an addict in just a few days so how do I expect my addict brain to learn how to successfully live sober in just a couple days. I mean it took me years to get addicted. I learned all of my addictive behaviors and developed all of my addict habits over the course of almost 7 years. So I knew that I needed a bit more healing time than detoxing with suboxone gave me. When you've been addicted for a long period of time like I have you need to be on suboxone long enough to get stable and work on your problems. Like why you got addicted in the first place. I need time to deal with my emotions and problems that I was self medicating and covering up with the fentanyl patches. I am just now learning all of these things and utilizing these new skills correctly. And I still don't have it all down. I'm still learning. So I know that I'm going to be on suboxone a bit longer.

Anyways I've talke enough now LOL. I hope that you have a great day and I will keep you in my prayers.


Much love. Jazz.

Hey Jazz and Blue,

Thanks for your input. I took my scheduled 1.4 dose this morning. Been okay all day except for dizziness. I get that anyway from meds and whatever. But now I am clammy and sweaty and was thinking I need a "middle dose". It is hot today for the first time this year.

I will hold off since Blue recommended days in between.

I guess if I am doing this well on 1-2 mgs it must be a small dependence. But big addiction is right around the corner as far as I can tell.

Things are not going as smooth as I hoped or planned. I had to take my 1.4 mg dose earlier than planned today (because I woke up early and had to be out). I've been feeling a little dizzy all day. Then about 12 hours later (2 hours ago) I felt even more dizzy and slightly ill. I am sure some is anxiety. What I am trying to understand is what this could be.

I stopped opiates on Wednesday last week, 5 days ago. It was a 2 month use of short acting opiates, enough to have some dependence. Is this the 5th day feeling of WD's? How should I adjust the Suboxone use? I just took another .5 mg (its so small I cant tell if it is .4, .6, .7 or what. I had to cut a sublingual strip)

Any advice right now would be wonderful. Thank you!

I know it's difficult to cut those Suboxone strips up !
I don't know how you could adjust your Suboxone doses at this point. You don't have
a whole lot to play with ya know ???

How are you feeling today?

mrtaper, it is good to meet you and have you here with us. I see that you have already met some of the most helpful and supportive ladies I've ever met. I apologize for not introducing myself earlier. I have some things going on here at home and have been spending a lot of time taking care of things. My father in law was diagnosed with lung cancer recently so I have been with my mother in law helping and pitching in when I can.

I noticed that you talk about being dizzy, have you checked your blood pressure since starting this journey? It may be just a shot in the dark but is worth checking into. You can check your blood pressure just about anywhere these days. Any pharmacy may have a cuff that you can hook yourself up to. withdrawal even minor withdrawal can cause havoc on our bodies and can cause blood pressure to spike. Make sure that you increase your fluid intake as well. Drinking lots of water can help and if your like my other half who hates drinking water you can flavor it with lemon or something else that you might like. Don't' forget to eat, it sounds like you are a very busy person and may forget to eat every now and then. When using we sometimes don't eat like we should because we simply don't feel like it, we don't feel hungry and that in itself can take a toll on a body. How are you eating now?

No mater how small your dependence or addiction may be, it still feels like hell when stopping.
As these wonderful ladies have already told you we are here for you anytime, every step of the way.
Good luck,
Dee

Hello MrTaper. Blue. And Dee.

I want to start by saying that Dee is right! No matter how small the dependence you're going to have a tough time quitting.
Also I believe that she is right about the Blood pressure. Because when I was in detox and they used suboxone. Before I got on a suboxone maintenance program. I felt very dizzy and come to find out my blood pressure was through the roof!

You haven't posts yet today. I'd like to hear how you are doing and how well things are going for you.

Hope to hear from you soon.

Much love. Jazz

MrTaper,

Haven't heard from you in a while.
Please let us know how you are when you get a chance.

Thanks

Blue

I am doing fine. Is live chat on right now?

I was able to learn more about the condition that got me into pain meds in the first place. I feel confident that I wont need pain meds again. At least not for this problem.

As for the current issue... Its been weird I got nauseous yesterday after taking a .5 dose in the evening and determined that I had taken too much. But I had only taken roughly the same as the day before.

It could be that suboxone is very strong and seemed normal ONLY WHILE I was going through mild withdrawals for a few days. But when the opiates wore off, the 6th and 7th day, which was yesterday... the 2mg/day dosing was too much for my system and made me sick and nauseated (a mild OD).


I took maybe .4 or .5 this morning. Just a tiny tiny piece. But for some reason I spit it out as soon as I put it under my tongue. Not sure why but then I thought about it and realized it may have been a good idea. for my psychology. When I am weening, if I know exactly what I took, then I think about the drop and how that makes me feel. I anticipate the feeling. So, I didnt know how much I took all day. This NOT KNOWING has helped me relax so much that I am doing very well now. It couldve been .5 mg or nothing at all or in between. Those are my theories. I dont want to recommend this method for others but if someone has anxiety, psychology is everything.

Bottom line is I believe I have taken much less than 2mg in the last 37 hours meaning that I have currently much less than 1 mg in my system now. I am doing fine so I will not take any this evening if I feel okay.

Then tomorrow, if I still feel okay, I will jump. If I still feel okay, or mostly okay, I will assume that means my body didnt get dependent on suboxone AND is off the short acting opiates.

Ive had some days this week where i was edgy and my pupils were dancing around in the mirror. Lots of anxiety. But being able to meet ppl here has made a huge difference.

I wish i didnt miss the live chat. I was available too. Dang

mrtaper it sounds like you have a good handle on what is going on with your body and are making great progress. Congratulations on this. I am happy for you and hopeful that soon you will be where you would like to be.
I believe that your story will be a great inspiration to those who wish to use Suboxone as a detox tool when they don't really want to go the maintenance route.

I would feel pretty alone if I could not have read other peoples stories.

thank you.

Mrtaper, Like Dee said, your doing great listening to your body. That's half the battle right there. Just remember with Suboxone, it has a very long half life. Approx 37hrs. Keep that in mind when figuring how much you still might have in your system. OK?

We hold chat 2x's a week on Tuesday and Thursday at 7:30 EST

We were actually thinking of holding another session, maybe over the weekend, would that work for you?

Keep up the good work, your doing GREAT!!!

Be well

Blue

Hi mrtaper!
I started reading your posts a couple of days ago and I just want to say how happy I am that you have joined this site. Like Dee said, it's great to have someone who is using suboxone for detox and is sharing his experience. I think you are doing great by listening to your body. I also wanted to introduce myself and say "Hello" I do hope we get a chance to chat, I usually join chat on Tuesday nights (if all my employees show up to work). I wish you the best of luck!!

Have a great day!

-Rae

Hello, Im having some difficulty.

Is it better to jump with uncomfortable feelings if possible? Or is it better to taper slowly and put off what seems like an inevitable process?

this is probably a common dilemna.

Today is difficult. My eyes are evidence with slightly enlarged pupils. Blurry vision, cant concetrate. i cant accomplish my goals like this but i coul go home and relax.

if i dont take anymore does that mean I will ultimately be done with suboxone WD's sooner?

What are the common thoughts on this?

Thanks!!

I got 2 problems.

1) when I need to solve a dilemna it is usually b/c I am having a problem that does not allow me to think. catch 22. cant win wiht that.

2) Even if I plan a structured dosage taper

A ... it seems likely it will be too fast or too slow

B ... it is basically impossible to cut these little strips and know how much I am taking. Its now just teeny or tiny, no quantitative analysis allowed.

Sorry if I seem frustrated.

Thanks for any advice.

I am going to jump. My last dose was around .5 mg this morning around 10am. It hasnt been taking long for the WD's to return. Ivve felt them coming almsot every day this week, or more actually. I am hoping that I will be mostly done before Monday, at least enough done to get through Monday. According to my research (based on my past use: 2 months mild-moderate mixed use of short acting opiates and my current one week taper down on suboxone) I am probably looking at 1-2 days of WD's. I do not believe my body has adjusted to Suboxone so my WD's would be a hybrid mix of many versions of opiate WD's. Does this sound accurate?

My big concern is doing this right. I have things I need to do but I can put off a lot this weekend. I am ready with vitamins and amino acids. Do I take tramadol? if so, when? I lean towards no. Especially if I am going to take clonidine. I have both. What else do I take? and When?

I hope to be able to check in and connect with you all while I am doing this. Obviously if its too much for me I will take more suboxone and figure this out another time. I need my wits next week and if being on subs is my only choice than that is fine. I have read that it takes 3 weeks/21 days to get adjusted/hooked on suboxone but I also read that stopping after one week was best. What do you all think?

I've come way down. I am at .5 mg or less a day so I may not need a doctor to continue a PX. But all this will get sorted out soon enough.

Hope to hear back from some of you.

I need to think this out. If I have been taking 1.5 to 2 mg each day until wednesday and then I dropped down to around .5 - 1 mg yesterday and then again today... I may have miscalculated the half lifes. I need to carefully figure out what I am really doing.

According to my reading .2 mg is what BUP (suboxone) is prescribed for pain so I should be at that level before jumping?

I really want to offer you the best advice that I can here.
Just remember the slower you go with this taper and the lower your dose (I know cutting
the strips can be misleading of your dose amt) the better/easier your jump with be.


Ideally you want to stabilize on each dose your at. That could take up to 3-5 days maybe more. I don't know if you have that kind of time or not.
Once you stabilize, you drop your dose again and so on and so on.
But again, you seem to want to jump now so I don't know how to go about giving you advice.


As far as the clonindine. Take it when you feel like crap. IF you do.

I'm sticking by my computer this weekend for you ok ?
If you want us to schedule a live chat I'll talk to Dee our Administrator.
Let me know

Stay strong you can do this !!!

Blue

A live chat, wow, that would be terrific. As for what I want to do, I want to do the best possible option for me. Which could be a slow taper or a fast taper. The fast taper I am already pursuing. So the question is whether to slow down.


I am unsure of what I am doing and as time goes on I get more nervous about getting hooked on suboxone. According to what I have read online, I am not addicted to suboxone.

But then what are the mild WD's I had this morning? Maybe they were very very mild, the kind from a one week binge of small doses?? You see where my questions go?

I have only a few options, slow, fast or very slow or very fast. But a multitude of varieties (daily, every other day, cold turkey, twice a day, with help from doctor, etc etc)

So lots of questions. But since I dont even know all the right questions to ask, well, that tells me i need help. Thank you so much Blue.

Here is an idea I have:

I am sorting out my lowest dose now. I am doing the math and figuring how I feel based on the past week of doses. Once I find a good estimate on my "lowest dose" then my thought is to hold off taking a dose as long as possible. Probably until sunday evening or monday morning. The goal is still get sleep and be okay for Monday. Theoretically "holding off" this weekend should help lower my "lowest dose".

Then, as you said Blue, I would stabilize. I would create a schedule to maintain that lowest dose all week and then drop again next weekend.

I may be done sooner than I think.

And I am still considering jumping at all costs.

One of my biggest problems is cutting the strips and getting access to more strips. I am working on finding a doctor. but I can already tell thats not going to work out. I got a doctor on the phone 15 minutes ago who talked a lot, almost rambling, and it sounds like no doctor would help someone at my low dose. ie: I am considered "OFF the meds" at this point.

Which is good and bad info. I hate to think about what it say about our health care system.

Okay, based on my calculations I have roughly 1.8 mg in me right now. I feel totally fine. I dont known how much lower I could go and still feel fine.

I will also assume that it could be higher or lower with a range of 1.2 to 2.2 mg

If I am as low as 1.8 in my system then, if I decide to taper and not do complete this jump, then i have to figure out how to maintain that amount in my system; figuring half lifes of each dose over the period of either 4.5 or 6 days. Thats 3 or 4 half lifes, rendering the 1 day of the schedule neglible.

Am I making any sense?

MrTaper,
It sounds like you are very confused about what to do. To me it seems like you don't know what you want to do lol.
I you mentioned jumping of previously in the thread and you said that is what you decided to do, but now you're talking about maybe showering down your taper since you've skyway done a fat taper.
Maybe your should continue tapering from where you are at until you run out of Suboxone.
I know you said that a doctor wouldn't help you. At least that's what one doctor told you. If I were you I'd try another doctor first. That is before giving up on trying to find one to help you. That is of your decide to sore down your taper.
I know that my cousin got down to 2mg/day then relapsed. She used for a few months and went to her old provider to very back on Suboxone. He turned her away. She found a provider that would write a script for her to be on 2mg/day. It took her a while though because most places said she was on such a low dose that it want even worth having her come in to get a script. But my point is she found a doctor that would help her no matter how low her dose was.
So I believe that if you decide to slow your taper down and you rally want to find a doctor that will help you then you will! Just dint stop looking until you find one. You're not off the meds until you're OFF of the meds! End of story! And you're still on them.
I will pray for the best for you!

Much love! Jazz

Hey Jazz! Im still jumpin or jumped. Feel good. making lists and writing notes to myself for tomorrow. But what Im actually doing is not always what Im thinking about. I got a lot on my mind. Since I don't have a doctor yet, and may not get one, I need to have plans in place. Its not like my mind-set is always good for making plans. Gotta plan while i can. Tomorrow, when my head will be on the dark side of pluto, and if I dont have any back up plans, I may go ask some friend "round the way" what they think I should do. Seriously, thats the only pharmacy I got, random friends and functional ghetto rats ...really! And I don't want to go there.